Demons need some Gear! Or something.

[Legion]

Over the past few days I couldn't help but notice a trend with new characters. That trend being, remarkable, amazing and all around spectacular gear. I have nothing against this, and anyone that knows me even slightly understands that I have a love for all thing future tech and scifi in origin. The sheer creativity I have seen going into some of these items not only makes me proud of the fact that my fellow members have astounding imaginations, but have a willingness to use them. But in my eyes(as wrong as some of you may think I am) I can only view some of these items as unfair at least to those playable races that do not have access to any gear of any sort outside of their inherent powers. And by this I mean demons.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that this tech is meant to "even" the playing field in one way or another, and I also understand that nothing is in fact perfect. But when you look closely at what we have here you can easily see how unbalanced things are. For one, demons have to use one of their limited ability slots in order to make use of any sort of gear. Why is this a problem? To put it simply it can and does put demons behind as far as ability progression go's. After all, while Demon Hunters often have an equipment based Evocation at first level, they make up ground with the fact that they have at the end ten distinct abilities of which nine could be skills that set them apart of their demon counter parts. On top of that, they have a special set of skills that make them or can make them superhuman while in Inferis. Their level progression is there for rather safe, seeing that they have those skills to fall back on plus a slurry of other abilities that they could have access to. Where as demons with a single weapon would only have access to at most to five such abilities.

But back to the main point, equipment and by extension the Templars and in the near future angels. While its true that these individual races have access to few powers then their demonic counter parts(four a piece for both in fact) these powers are can be solely devoted to skill based abilities(And in the case of the templars, must be devoted to such). Still looking at that, it seems that demons still have a numerical advantage or at least could. But this sin't the case. Much of the tech used by templars have abilities that are in the end augment level or in some cases better.  But whats the big deal with that? Well to put it plainly there is no limit as to how many pieces of advanced equipment an angel or a Templar can have access to. Hell my own Templar has equipment that almost mimics apparatus(The Screamer sonic pistol and Equalizer grenade respectfully) as well as a Templar augment(That being the Etheric Goggles).  But I am not the only one guilty of this, in fact I made that equipment to illiterate a point. At level one, Mr. White has access to not one augment quality ability, but four. And while it can be said that demons have more flexibility as far as their powers go's, as well as greater Leniency  with their skills... That does not make up for the fact that at level one, if they choose(And I understand it is a choice) to have a weapon... That is all they have.

Now, I'm not asking for anyone to retcon anything. I'm not necessarily complaining as I am sure some of you think I am. What I am asking for is the ability to give demons access to weapons outside of their apparatus. Allowing them to maybe manifest in their demon forms  with out having to use one of their limited apparatus. In the end, I know I have brought this up time and again, and I know I could be beating a dead horse, but I can't let it rest not yet. Anywho, I figured bringing it up here would be better then a screaming match in the cbox, and it would also let me get my ideas up without them being fragmented. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I welcome any sort of argument or discussion.  

Respectfully,
Bronze

[Hattori Kazuya]

I am inclined to agree with Bronze here. I, honestly thought I was overstepping my bounds when I made Vetrov's equipment. I made sweet armor with locking joints and fancy plating, all of which is possible but expensive. I gave her a arm mounted chainsaw and a chainsaw sword because I was modeling her after the Sisters of Battle from Warhammer 40K. That being said I made my equipment app ready to revise it. it got sent through and I was happy. Now we are taking it too far. Piston powered mechasuits and armor inside of armor that makes people run 60mph. Is it possible? Sure. In the next twenty years? I sincerely doubt it. Templars are the biggest equipment OP offenders and I understand why and it's purpose. However, demons are getting the shaft here. If I want a bitchen magic sword I gotta waste a power. Why not just make an angel that gets free bitchen magic swords? Why not just make a demon hunter and get ten powers? Why not make a ritualist and get an inferis morph that can have weapons without making them cost so much in progression? I think demons should have access to demony equipment just like angels have access to angelic equipment. Sure people aren't going to stop making demons, because they are feckin cool, but they are going to start seeing the unbalanced nature of things once those angels show up. That's my piece, do what you will with it.

Dread, the advocate of stuff.

[Tony Carvalho]

o3o Methinks demon gear could work well enough. If needed, could even have it limited. Like, six abilities and four equipment slots. Just so long as they get demonic goodies.
Namely because Kraith needs a theremin, and more specifically, multiple versions of a theremin of the plural variety, which is to say, whatever the proper grammatical word for theremins is, Kraith needs them. Probably. Oh, and less ridiculous demons could use gear for less ridiculous ventures. Kraith's just a buttmonkey like that.

Signed, Jay. A person. Maybe.

[Lazarus Carter]

Let me begin by illustrating a few points here.

First off: the most important is that DEMONS ARE THE UNDERDOG. I´ve made no attempt to hide this over time. And I´ll continue not to. They´re a class which populates Inferis and which a large percentage of will end up being cannon fodder. NPC Demons. Morality can be grey all it likes to and I advocate playing both sides of the field when it comes to the spectrum of moral worth: but that makes little difference. At the end of the day, Demons will continue to be the underdog. And in playing them, you accept this.

Demons have an unfair advantage over most human classes. At level 1, most Demons have an advanced healing factor. Higher resilience to pain and physical damage. Greater physical and mental endurance, fortitude, and outward strength, and higher intelligence. Bronze claims the Templar Equipment he sees trumps this and takes it to a completely new level, because it´s something they get without having to take up Augment slots. Let us not forget that Templars get two less Augments than Apparatus - which is one of the arguing points, that Demons have limited slots at the end of the day.

But what you´re not considering are the standards on which Apparatus are judged. Let´s take, for example, Gaius. His abilities are stronger than that of most human-based character classes. Were he a Demon Hunter, he would not have those abilities - plus his natural rock-hard skin and other superb physical and mental attributes - over so few slots. Demons are challenged when it comes to quantity and variety because the quality and versatility of their skills are unchallenged. If you don´t make them that versatile, then work them over to make them so.

Let me bring another point to the table. We´ve already established that on a physiological, psychological and spiritual level, nine times out of ten, base Demon attributes trump those of all humans. Okay, okay, but what we´re forgetting is that all humans - Templars, Hunters, Ritualists - share something in traversal into Inferis that they lack, that Demons will ALWAYS have. The same rings true for Angels. Inferis is their native territory. In the Vietnam war, part of what was attributed to the overall prowess of the Vietcong was their advantages in that they knew the jungles; the tunnels they built; it was HOME territory. The same rings true for Inferis; but not just on a terrain-based level. Earth is wildly different in many unspoken ways to Inferis; and as much as time within for humans will force them to acclimatise and accommodate, there´s that edge of familiarity that all humans will NEVER possess.

The Demon Apparatus template is the same template for all NPC Demons. Of course; it isn´t used, and it´s toyed with somewhat, extrapolated a little, and instead we define in the Bestiary with¨"Regular" or "Elite", but this is a common template for all Demons to be judged with. Take into example Lucrum/EDEN´s adversary Vic the Butcher. He has two Apparati and is given them to gauge against the abilities of PC Demons. Make it too advanced and it begins to get daunting. Of course, this point´s a double-edged blade in my argument: make it more complex and it doesn´t change a thing for NPC Demons, I know. But it´s a sort of common ground that provides understanding, a baseplate, for adversaries and NPCs. Of which there will be more Demon than human across the site.

What it comes down to is that you´re highlighting the point that I´ve stated again and again and one that was INTENDED to be a structural flaw for Demons to give them a sort of reflection. They have less variety. Less Apparatus spots. Because I wanted to make Demons unique. I wanted to have to make the players of Demons choose - and in exchange they get stronger abilities, stronger weapons - just less slots to choose it with.

This point´s something pitiful, but still something to remember; rewards for Belial´s gauntlets, and other such supernatural tournaments, ALONGSIDE the upcoming beginning of the legendary weapons events are all Apparatus-extra.

Let me make this plain and simple. Demons are not getting weaponry that they don´t have to account for in their Apparatus app. They´re intended to be the underdog; you play the underdog, you take on their specific tactical advantages and disadvantages - granted, you may think there are more of the latter than the former - with them. I am, for all this, however, considering adding a seventh and final achievable Apparatus slot for multiple reasons. First it allows a degree of breathing room - though small, I admit - with this debate, but it also distinguishes between the distinct tiers of PC Demon elite against the NPC Elites and Regulars and makes them truly stand out and break the mold, as it should be. Naturally, this would be paid-for, though at any time after level 2, probably 100 or 150 points. Gives you something extra to aspire to after you hit Level 4, either way. There are Demons that this sort of distinction would be highly useful for; those who are at the precarious point of power that they could almost be considered closer to Archdemons than most, though still a far cry from it. Abaddon, for example. Another´s Pupus, perhaps. Or maybe even Lucrum or Gaius - the mercenary elite.

Just understand this: playing a Demon, you sacrifice versatility and variety for increased power. When it comes to being the jack-of-all-trades, Demons are significantly disadvantaged, I don´t argue against it. But Demons are still the most powerful, the most recognisable, and the most reputed class if only for having a base of what would be the most-battled NPC theatre there is. They have their attributes of dominance; most of them just go unrecorded and taken for granted, but just remember that they´re still there.

[Lazarus Carter]

Double post for glory.

Bronze: I´d advise against making equipment to illustrate a point in the future. Y´know, keep this argument separate from your characters otherwise things start to get messy. Just my two cents.

[Legion]

I understand, accept and embrace that demons are supposed to be the underdog class. But there is a point in which the odds are so stacked against someone or something that it becomes readily apparent that the underdog won't win, but in the end can't win. But lets get back to that later, for now lets take a look at the number differnces between Demons and the other classes. At max level Demons have a total of six apperatus and zero gear out side of those provided by their apperatus. Demon Hunters have ten Evocations, plus outside near unlimited outside gear so long as it makes sense and is explained. Templars have four augmentation slots, which from what I have noticed are just as far reaching as Demonic apperatus, plus an unlimited amount of real world gear that can and often does mimic powers used by demons and demon hunters. Angels take it a step farther and while they too are limited to four abilities, these abilities will be just as far reaching as demonic apperatus if not more so(This of course is based on the information I have gathered from those currently creating angels and from the angel apps ive had the pleasure of reading), they have access to an unlimited amount of "holy" weaponry... Plus physical and spiritual benifits to rival if not compeltely overshadow those of their demonic counterparts.

But yet again lets look at those numbers:

Demons have a total of six slots to be filled plus their demonic natures and what has been called a home world advantage.

Demon Hunters have ten ability slots plus an unlimted amount of gear given cause, plus inherent skills that they get while in Inferis.

Templars have four ability slots plus an unlimted amount of futuristic weaponry which include powered exoskeltons, armor capable of invisability and in the future I have heard tale of a fully operational Mech.

Angels have four abilities, weaponms and gear that will undoubtably be comparable too those of the Templars, maybe even more so plus their angelic atributes that will be comparable to those of demons.

Looking at this I cant help but feel that the forces of hell are predestoned to lose what ever comes in the future. To top it off, while its been claimed that demons have greater leeway with their abilities... I don't see that. Since Gaius has been used as a bench mark to gauge demonic power I will use him as an example. When first created, his apperatus was denied for the fact that it was to large in scoop with the end result being him only having a sword and shield at level one(Which I may add is comparable to any level one Demon hunter... Whos abilities are supposed to be far more limited then those of demons.). So what was my original apperatus? It was rather simple. I wanted Gaius to have the sword and shield, but instead of being mundane I wanted the shield to be able to block spiritual based attacks. This ability was only a tad less focused then those of DH and from whats been said many times before, I should have been able to have that with little to no problem. In the end, Demons and their abilities get subjected to very much the same standards that the other classes do and with out the added benifit of being able to fall back on gear to mnake up the difference.

In the end, while demons supposedly have these benifits... You don't see them and as such their ability to retaliate against their enemies is not only hammpered but crippled. Honestly, I don't see how this is fair to thepeople who play demons even if they are supposed to be the underdogs of this site. In the end, its the human races+ angels that hold every advantage from number of powers to sheer utility. My question is why? Demons are supposed to be the stuff of human nightmares. They are the enemy, they are the adversary... But what use is an adversary that can't fight back effectivly? There is after all only so far you can go with saying that demons are supposed to be the underdog, and to me it just seems like an excuse not to address and issue that could otherwise be fixed. As it stands it seems that the demonic faction is prescripted to lose. No matter what happens, no matter the circumstance. All the evidence of that can be seen in the already in the works future events. Of course I expect this to be a pointless waste of my time, saying these things because in the end what I think and what I see, no matter how logical, hardly matters. That is all.

[Lazarus Carter]

plus outside near unlimited outside gear so long as it makes sense and is explained.

But nothing even remotely close to the gear of Templars and to being extra-Apparatus. Look around; most Demon Hunters HAVE no equipment. Those that do have mundane or simple things. Even Elijah only has an array of sharp things. Which is in itself meaningless cause he can craft exactly the same using his Evocations in Inferis. They're supplementary for Demon Hunters more than anything else. They won't add an edge to it.

Looking at this I cant help but feel that the forces of hell are predestoned to lose what ever comes in the future.

The sheer NUMBER of Demon forces completely contradict this. Not to mention that the Archdemons are without a doubt the strongest characters on the site, paralleled only by the Archangels, of which there are two less.

You, personally, know my plans. You know I have railroaded very little. Take that as you will.

It was rather simple. I wanted Gaius to have the sword and shield, but instead of being mundane I wanted the shield to be able to block spiritual based attacks.

And I told you "not at Level 1". You're free to add this now. I'd accept it heartily. Apparatus limitations in variety and power are two different things.

In return, I was referencing mainly Gaius' LATER powers. His Martial Law would not be acceptable - at least at such a degree - as a negation power for a Demon Hunter full stop. Try me on that point!

In the end, Demons and their abilities get subjected to very much the same standards that the other classes do and with out the added benifit of being able to fall back on gear to mnake up the difference.

I'm challenging you to find more examples than simply Gaius. And as a matter of fact, he is, as a Level 3 character, at the stronger end of the spectrum. I can tell you almost completely objectively that he's not underpowered, and is infact bordering on OP with his abilities - which would have been unable for him to have straight-out if it were not for his being a Demon.

They are the enemy, they are the adversary... But what use is an adversary that can't fight back effectivly? There is after all only so far you can go with saying that demons are supposed to be the underdog, and to me it just seems like an excuse not to address and issue that could otherwise be fixed.

If we make the forces of Hell overpowered, it predecides the battle. THAT'S the issue I was trying to stray from. NPC-wise, Demons will almost completely overwhelm all forces. That's WHY Hunters are - and I have never stated they were not - more powerful than the common Demon, NPC or not. The same goes for Templars. And for Ritualists. That's WHY they have more ability slots or the 'advantage', greater or lesser as you may think it to be.

Of course I expect this to be a pointless waste of my time, saying these things because in the end what I think and what I see, no matter how logical, hardly matters.

You're making this personal. I'm addressing you and this issue no less than I would someone else who would bring it to me. I'm not ignoring you: I've given you an answer, AND a compromise which you appear to have completely ignored! Truth is? These power suits could easily be trumped or pulled down with a single Apparatus. Gaius could probably take on - let's avoid ambiguity - Darius and have a GOOD chance, infact an almost perfect chance, cause we're talking about LEVEL here.

I'm not giving Demons equipment. I've made this point. And it's a "no". One I'm going to continue to reinforce. Accuse me of making this an excuse, not providing reasons, of ignoring you, of whatever you'd like: but accept that fact. Demons will not get equipment. That much is simple. You've been given the points to your advantage. And the 7th Apparatus slot compromise is one I am happy to - and have been considering for a while - implement momentarily if not immediately.

Other suggestions I am open to. Please - throw them at me here. Or PM them - and infact, if there's a personal avenue you want to pursue with this, cause it seems to me that you're bitter about this, though I may be wrong - and I will address them in due course. But if you're going to make this public, I'm going to politely request that you keep the personal sides of the argument OUT of this so others don't have to bear witness to it, and keep things civil here. If your problems are with how you think you or your ideas are being treated, please PM me. I can assure you you're getting treatment no different to how someone else would if they brought this to me in such a manner.

I'm consulting with all staff for further suggestions and rectifications that they might have to offer. Thus far Kenny agrees with me and Al appreciates the concept of a seventh Apparatus. Tell me what you think, and when Vi and Niko come up with something, they can add it too. But try to pursue other avenues.

What you argue for is the size of the stick. But you forget that what matters a hell of a lot more is who's swinging it: the Evocations I have with Laz put him on roughly an even keel with Gaius. Infact he'd probably, at some level, have the tables turned less in his favour. Demons are, stripped to the bone, inherently, in and of themselves, NOT human. This is why they will succeed time and time again. THIS is why the forces of hell are NOT predestined to lose, and infact why they have a hell of a chance with the whole affair. This is why I feel that whilst your argument is respectable and something can be done about it to remedy this, I'm not going to give the clearance to give Demons equipment.

Finally, a single point: if you feel Demons have been shafted in such a manner, why are they still and why have they from the beginning remained the most popular character type?

[Legion]

I can agree with your most of your points, in fact nothing you have said has not been true in one form or another but there are a few things have been missed.
 
In your example you pitted Darius a level one character against Gaius a level three and you stated that Gaius would have a good chance to win... Thing is, he shouldn't have a chance at winning. He should win hands down, no contest. Because like you said there is a level difference! But with the tech levels we are currently working with, those two levels hardly matter, and looking at Darius's suit... Well Gaius could not do shit to get through it and even he would be steam rolled over by an almost literal ton of metal running at 50mph.
 
You also bring up a seventh apperatus slot. Great idea, amazing merit.... Only thing is, Demons would have to pay for said slot with points where as Templars and Angels will be handed their gear with just a nod of the head. If, persay they had to pay for each peice of advanced tech then I would agree that it would be a fair and just comprimise. But they dont, so the point is still moot andwhile it would help... It would in the end not make a difference. Plus to have a demon reach his, her or its full potential would cost 100 or a 150 more points then any other race.
 
Another thing i would like to point out is that we, the players, are no hords of demonic cannon fodder. We play a singular(Ironic this, given the account I am on) character who more often then not will be faced with other singular characters, and while this site is not all about combat... It is a healthy portion of it. Ive had to power play the hell out of Gaius to give him a fighting chance against characters that are lower levels then he, which I shouldn't have to do to remain on an even playing field with other races.
 
As for why demons are the most popular class? Its rather simple. Demons are fun to play, they offer more diversity then most other classes. Its that simple.
 
Id put more but I need to get back to work, but i will respond when I have the chance.

[Legion]

Also, as far as angels go... If they have access to the same quality of gear that Archangels have as well as having their abilities... I can't help but think that they to will out class any demon that happens their way. After all magic power + magic sword beat any demons mundane sword at level one.

[Tony Carvalho]

I think a few good ideas for some things could work well.

For one, as far as apparati go, why not just make a combined apparatus of sorts? Like, a gun that shoots lit dynamite, for a comical example. As far as I can tell from this lovely debate, the issue is that you could have a gun, or you can shoot dynamite out of your bum or something, I don't know. WELL. Why not just make a gun as an apparatus, with the power to shoot dynamite, but the functionality to also work as a gun? Could make up for a lack of equipment stuff in a way.

Another thing is Templar equipment. I think Bronze is right, in that there should be a point price for a post-limit thing. As one with a Templar who has a LOT OF GUNS AND TOYS, even I have to admit it seems somewhat silly that you can just make a Templar and give him forty guns at level one, in a hilariously exaggerated example. I'd say eight is a good limit. Past eight, there should perhaps be a point price to pay, per weapon; 15-25 points apiece would make a nice price, or higher, or lower, whatever. Which would make Rev's final pointcost a sexy 315-425 total, in equipment. ||D But would even the playing field a fine amount.

My tree-fiddy on the matter.

[Legion]

Its not the guns that I have difficulty with, its the weapons and armors with aditional abilities such as allowing the wearer to become invisable, or allowing them to lift 1500 pounds. Guns are guns are guns, and while guns are cool I dont think they should be limited... Unless of course they have some sort of aditional ability, like the screamer.

[Tony Carvalho]

Pffffffft, not guns, literally. lawl I was using that as an example. Meant just a general "Weapon + ability = Augment" idea.

[Lazarus Carter]

Gaius still has a hell of a chance of winning if only on the principle of "He's Level 3". Of course - we don't decide all battles like that for the sake of the few not outnumbering the many, and to make things more interesting, but his Apparatus is still strong - it's Level 3 tier infact. Time of writing, Darius is Level 1. That's a significant point in Gaius' favour.

I'm not charging per item after a particular threshold or per item with special abilities. It's not the way things have been done nor the way I see fit to do things. Vi has additionally added her two cents. She agrees. Thinks that there's no balance problem: but a seventh Apparatus slot could help distinguish.

I KNOW we're not dealing with NPC cannon fodder, but the fact is that PC Demons and NPC cannon fodder are judged from the same template, crafted from the same mold - Regular and Elite is a tiering just like our level system. They use the same Apparatus - BUT the seventh Apparatus would further distinguish. We get powerful NPC Demons just like we get and will have powerful and individual PC Demons.

As for Angels; Angels don't get the same calibre of weaponry but the same family, still holy in origin but not nearly as powerful. Example: Akrasiel has the Longinus (or an incarnation of it), the holy lance that pierced Jesus' side etc etc and thus it's accordingly powerful. You've prolly seen this though.

Ive had to power play the hell out of Gaius to give him a fighting chance against characters that are lower levels then he, which I shouldn't have to do to remain on an even playing field with other races.

Proof. I want to see IC, RPed proof of this, that you've had to powerplay him for that very sake. You know I've tried to resist it irrespective cause I don't like powerplaying. But that's the intention with Demons to a much lesser extent: like you said, you've had to powerplay, a degree of that is somewhat necessary for the simple fact that Demons have less variety. You know the point. They're judged by slightly different standards.

I appreciate your suggestions, but thus far the seventh Apparatus is what's happening. And just like Templars get advanced tech at a nod of the head, Demons get those extra two Apparatus slots over the Templars - one of which could be used exclusively, even at level 1, to emulate something similar to Darius' armour.

[Legion]

AS you say I suppose, I still find it rather lame that you can have gear that has apparatus quality abilities with out any sort of point cost or level up. Which can not be said for demons, seeing as they have to spend points to get any sort of upgrade for gear. In the end it is hardly the same thing in any way shape or form, after all at level one White has 4 augment level abilities... Of which only one is his augment, not to mention anyone with specialized armor. Though, I would make a suggestion and not have the 7th apparatus slot cost to much seeing as demons have to pay for levels as is. I would also like to point out that I can't get anyone to fight Gaius for what ever reason... But as soon as I have it happen I will gladly show you!

[Cael Gladius]

I would actually like to offer up this thread as an example of just how limited, or not so, classes are when pitted against one another:

CAEL VS GAIUS

Now, as we see in this fight, in the beginning there is obviously an advantage to Gaius. Why is that? Because he, as a demon, has no fear of loss to show. Gaius knows that victory can be in his reach, and therefor readies himself for battle wholeheartedly. Cael? Upon seeing Gaius transform, he has to reach down inside of himself, balls deep, in order to step forward and take this challenge.

Why though? Why is Cael afraid, even if only slightly? Because Demons represent a primal fear that will always stick with humans. They are different, vastly so, and this is intimidating. My character, if he hadn't of been trained by two separate masters and honed his skills within Inferis, would have more than likely turned tail and ran upon seeing such a thing. He did not, only because, even though he was afraid, his pride and hardened spirit would not see themselves overcome.

I am 100% convinced that if Belial hadn't have intervened in this fight that Gaius would have been the victor. Now, is this fair? Why should two level one characters have such differences in strength?

Well, it is fair. The reason why is because PC Demons level on a different scale than human characters. They completely outclass the other groups at LEVEL ONE. This is fine though, because once Demon Hunters and Templars level up they get a significant boost in strength. Level two Demons get more power as well, which still puts them above human classes. The only exception here are bonded Ritualists, and this is only because their abilities stem from Demons.

Let's skip level three and jump to four, shall we? At Level 4, this is where I feel that the classes all meet up in terms of power.

Demons at this point have increased not only their natural skills, but also have access to six apparatuses of varying strength and effect. A Level Four demon should be just below Archdemons in terms of power, and, as such, they are a force to be reckoned with.

Demon Hunters are granted TEN Evocations, along with their granted skills within Inferis. Evocations aplenty, right? While this could be considered "OP" (which I believe to be a totally invalid term to use in this RP), Evocations are limited more so than Apparatuses. The point of playing these characters are to rely on clever tactics or trickery in order to HUNT DEMONS, something which usually would prey upon a human with no trouble.

Templars are only granted FOUR augments. Why do they receive less abilities than any of the other character types? Because that is not what their battle style is supposed to be focused upon. The majority of Templars are considered human military elite in terms of skill on the battlefield at level one. They do not, however, rely on otherworldly abilities like Demon Hunters and Ritualists. They have to use technology and advanced weaponry in order to even compete with the other character types. By their fourth level, Templars would be seen using advanced military tactics, as well as utilizing their weaponry to its fullest potential. This is because they have not much else to support them, thus making everything they have given to them from the start completely valid.

A side note here: A Level One Templar would not be able to compete with Cael as he is right now though, because, while Darius has his armor, Cael is able to cleave through nearly anything with Espada del Relámpago coupled with his Flash Step. His speed with the Flash Step is literally faster than the human eye can keep up with, making him one of the deadlier Demon Hunters on this site.

Now we reach fourth level Ritualists. These characters are more than likely at the largest advantage, because their abilities are the only ones which can be utilized while on Earth. The only characters able to keep up with them even slightly would be Templars, but within Inferis this changes. They are granted morphs, which essentially pull them into a demonic form which surpasses the power of most natural Demons. This is because they are two different beings becoming one through use of dark magics. Within Inferis they are usually only trumped by the likes of Demon Hunters, as well as some high level Demons and Templars. If any character should be nerfed, I would volunteer this class, but considering their lack of battle prowess and natural skill when compared to the others, they are still at the same base comparison of strength.

Civilians are civilians. What makes them civilians are because they are civilians, and thus making any argument based on them would be null and void no matter the level we put them at.

Here's my two cents. Go nuts with how you critique my explanations of character types, but I feel this is the closest that's been said as far as a coherent comparison between each of them. I would also like you to consider that fighting is NOT the main focal point which should be expressed through roleplay here. While there is a good amount of it which goes on, what everyone should focus on is the molding of relationships as well as furthering their character's growth as exactly what they are. A character. As far as I can see, there should be nothing personal remotely involved in this.

THESE ARE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, I REITERATE ONCE MORE. I don't care if this gets me labeled an asshole, but giving yourself a deep connection with your character here (or anywhere) will only, and always, end up saddening you. Why? Because none of this is going to last forever. Appreciate and enjoy your time here while it lasts instead of finding things which you don't exactly consider "fair" to nitpick about.

[David Bowie]

[Topic Derailed]

Civilians are civilians. What makes them civilians are because they are civilians, and thus making any argument based on them would be null and void no matter the level we put them at.

>: Tony's pistols versus any character of any level of any class. Obvious pistol victory. Psh.

TONY VS GAIUS? TONY.
TONY VS CAEL? TONY.
TONY VS JEAN? TONY.
TONY VS DAMON? TONY.
TONY VS LUCIFER? TONY.
TONY VS TONY?
...
...
Uh...
I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT ONE. I'LL GET BACK TO YOU.

[Topic Rerailed]

[Ba'al]

I figure I should at least get a moment to put in my two cents here; despite the ten-day difference between posts. I made Darius the way he was, because of not only his position, but the role he is supposed to take. His armor is as strong as it is because I expect him to be able to take on small legions of lesser demons and come out almost unscathed. I don't expect him to come out on top against most higher-tier Demons--in fact, I expect him to lose. Because as he loses, he's going to realize more and more his own powerlessness.

I will reiterate.

He is made strong because as a human he is still weak.

The strength that the armor gives him is nothing compared to what a good portion of the Demon population can do on Inferis. The '40mph movement speed' is in a straight line charge, and the armor handles like a brick on square wheels. His armor's made of some of the hardest materials on Earth, sure, but in the end what's that to a Demon with a strong enough Apparatus?

Hold on, let me actually start listing things from his app.

Weaknesses

Reduces Darius' mobility by 25%.
Cannot function underwater--the rebreather does not allow for filtering of water, and the armor is not watertight.
Weight makes it undesirable on weak terrain.
If it falls, it takes some time to get back up. This time is crucial to defeating him.
Has small openings that can be manipulated if noticed. These could disable mechanics, leaving Darius in-need of a repair. Even though it self-repairs, there is a long wait while it does so. Damaging circuits could even leave him stranded.

These are weaknesses from his basic armor. Do you see the way to defeat him? You push him over. Once he's over, you're pretty much free to do what you can. His weapons are unwieldy, and his armor requires that stability to be useful. Blunt force or powerful cutting is all you need, and then he's just a fish in a tin waiting to be gutted.

Weaknesses

Mobility is reduced by 65% while in the armor.
Though underwater function is possible, mobility is reduced by a further 50% (down to 25%) while doing so. Movement speed is unaffected.
Self-repair takes a long time. It is not recommended to do so unless absolutely sure of safety.
Weight makes all but the most stable surfaces unreliable.
Doesn't really have chasing power. While it has a charge and the jump jets, it still takes time to get to a high enough movement speed to give chase.
If it falls over, it won't get up for a long time.
Although it is extremely stable on flat land, blunt kinetic force is the key to defeating it. Its stability drive will only keep it up after so much force; the more applied force overall, the better.

These are the weaknesses for his Second Tier armor. It may be tougher and capable of functioning underwater, but it's even more susceptible when it's been knocked over. Even if someone's overwhelmed, they can just find a way to knock him down and then run. He's big. He falls hard.

I figure you'll appreciate this too: This is just a take on the usual 'Powered Exoskeleton' technology that is in fact around today--not even that, it's about three years old. Google the XOS Exoskeleton. This is an exoskeleton that goes on the arms and legs, allowing the user to lift 200 pounds with little effort. If you think about how supposedly 'ahead of the times' the Templars are with technology, do you really think that this is completely imposssible?

Sources:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/raytheon-xos-2-exoskeleton-us/

Actually, what gets me is the fact that you found yourself incapable of speaking to me on this issue. This issue that involves my character, that you instead had to make public instead of talking to me first about this issue. It makes me question how much I'm trusted.

I apologize for responding to a thread that's been long-finished, but when my work is called into repute because someone's not happy, I tend to want to defend it myself.

[Legion]

I'd like to point out that this in fact, Was not about Darius. In fact his only part in this topic is as an example and nothing more. The actual point here was to talk about what I see as unfair disadvantages to the demon player race, and as a whole had little to nothing to do with Darius.

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